Edited transcript of weekly BriefingsDirect[TM] SOA Insights Edition, recorded Oct. 13, 2006.
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Dana Gardner: Hi, this is Dana Gardner. I'm principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions, and you are listening to latest BriefingsDirect SOA Insights Edition. This is a weekly discussion and dissection of Services Oriented Architecture (SOA)-related news and events. We bring to this subject a panel of independent industry analysts and guests. Joining us this week, we have Steve Garone. Welcome to the show, Steve.
Steve Garone: Great to be here, Dana.
Gardner: Steve is an independent analyst, a former program vice president at IDC (responsible for software), and he is also founder of The AlignIT Group.
Also joining us today is Jon Collins, principal analyst at Macehiter Ward-Dutton. Jon comes with a number of years of experience with other research firms including Bloor and IDC, and has worked as a consultant, network manager, and software engineer for such companies at Admiral Management, Alcatel, Philips and Sun Microsystems. Welcome to the show, Jon.
Jon Collins: Hi, everyone, and good morning to you.
Gardner: Yes, we should mention that you’re joining us from the U.K. today. Well, the subject this week -- and we’re talking about the week of October 9, 2006 -- includes some interesting developments in SOA. Among them is the rising specter of SOA and virtualization. I don’t know about you guys, but I got an invite from Sun Microsystems to an announcement that apparently has quite a bit to do with virtualization and SOA. As we know, Sun has quite an offering in greater utility computing.
If you want to expand the definition of virtualization, they are able to create instances of operating systems as well as instances of Java virtual machines, I believe, and support of other operating systems through their Janus Project. And they're running applications in a closed individual environment that's secure and can exploit the power of the hardware, and threading in multicore, as well as to provide a high-performance series of instances of an operating system environment or an application environment. That is, I suppose, virtualization on the level of operating system and perhaps middleware as well.
So, let me go around our small table of three analysts here today and get your take on the role of virtualization in SOA. Are they distinct, do they crossover, and what do you expect you hear from Sun? Let’s start with you, Steve.
Garone: Thanks, Dana. This is a particularly interesting area, and one of the reasons is because many organizations are being confronted with these two new “paradigms” -- granted an overused word -- and they require adoption of two new ways of doing things pretty much at the same time. They are related in a lot of ways, and complementary in a lot of ways.
When you look at SOA, you look at high-level advantages in terms of greater business agility and flexibility, lowering costs, being able to interact and interoperate with others more easily through integration at a high-level of abstraction, and so on. Operationally, with SOA you have to deal with issues around deployment, provisioning, monitoring the environment, scaling -- sometimes virtually in real time -- meeting the requirements of service level agreements and so on.
When you think about it in terms of the operational aspects, the two paradigms really do share drivers in terms of lower costs and greater efficiency. You see, in fact, a lot of complementary relationships between the two. If you think about being able to flexibly deploy operating systems and virtualized environments on top of platforms and monitoring them and being able to manage them efficiently, that is really sort of a management and infrastructure underpinning for effectively doing SOA. You’re going to have to deploy services and understand where they are, and understand how to use them, within the context of a virtualized environment. To me they sort of go hand-in-hand. So it’s no surprise that both end-users and vendors, in response to end-users, are taking a great interest in the overlap between these two areas.
Gardner: It sounds like a very efficient way to deploy services instead of having a monolithic approach of full stack infrastructure. You can put underneath that service just the amount of infrastructure that's required by virtualizing it; and therefore creating a data center or an application services environment that uses less electricity, smaller foot prints, and -- as the demand on that service increases -- the provisioning of additional resources beneath it should happen at a fairly automated basis, along with the clustering and other virtualization benefits.
Garone: I agree, and, in fact, one of the potential end-points of this is a scenario in which vendors will create a virtual environment that includes the required operating system functionality needed to make it work and basically be sort of bare-bones and tailored to the specific application type being deployed. VMware (Oct. 12, 2006) actually had a pretty interesting announcement around virtual appliances that addresses just that.
Gardner: So you can approach this from an appliance perspective or virtualized instance of an operating system environment, and either way you’d be basically approaching this from the same value proposition -- just doing it in a different way.
Garone: Right, and again, all of this sort of forms the underpinnings for where you build, deploy, and manage the services that are part of an SOA environment.
Gardner: Okay, Jon, over to you. If you can do virtualization for an operating system and/or a business application, why not do it for services?
Collins: Absolutely. I can only agree with everything that Steve said. I think one of the complications comes when you start thinking in terms of software services rather than in terms of software applications. They have a little different life cycle and a different approach to traditional -- let's call them siloed -- software applications. If you've got virtualization managing the infrastructure and helping you actually serve up the right type of the infrastructure in the right way, the right size and scale, and so on, to run the services, then you’ve got SOA. That’s managing the demand side, if you like, that can consume those resources and allocate what runs where, and how things communicate with each other. There is a definite fit.
Gardner: I suppose what’s less clear at this point is the relationship between SOA governance and the provisioning and resource allocation that will be taking place as part of the virtualization. Are these going to be going off in their own orbits with no relationship? Or will there be an opportunity to bring them together somehow?
Collins: Well there's the rub. But there is also a difficulty, because of the way they traditionally have been done. SOA governance has been the evolution of software development and application development, and people working together to procure and deploy applications. The whole IT operational governance side traditionally has been two very different parts of the organization. So, while it's easy to say, yes, let's do it in a service life cycle approach -- where the service starts in one place and goes from development to operations very smoothly -- we’ve got to get two sides of the organization talking to each other.
Gardner: Now, we mentioned Sun Microsystems having an announcement around this, and that makes great deal of sense, given where they are coming from. But the other big vendor in this space, in my thinking, is IBM. They’ve been talking about the virtualized corporation for sometime, and they take this even further than Sun in terms of conceptualizing the virtualization of data, the virtualization of applications, the virtualization of infrastructure -- and now increasingly the virtualization of services. And if you look at the total picture, what you start to see is a highly increased productivity and agility around how IT is consumed, but also perhaps significantly reducing the operating and maintenance costs for these services. How do you understand the IBM virtualized corporation?
Garone: If you just a step back for a moment, you talked about two vendors, Sun and IBM. You’d expect Sun to be playing to some extent in this sandbox that brings together virtualization and SOA because they are obviously an important SOA player, at least in terms of their support for technologies that are going to be used to build SOA-type implementations. But there are all sorts of system vendors, and all system vendors are going to have to deal with this some time or another. And, of course, they are also storage vendors. You didn’t mention storage in your list although that could be considered that part of the infrastructure.
Gardner: Yeah, that would be certainly virtualized as well.
Garone: Yes, and so you’d expect Sun to be there. IBM, if you ask me, based on what I’ve seen from them, as it has done with SOA, is probably going to be sort of a champion in this area. I’ve spoken to them, and they pretty much get it. Are their products there yet? Probably not.
IBM is burdened -- as it usually is, when it tries to put these comprehensive strategies together -- with the fact that it's got a lot of legacy products that it should, and it does, want to integrate into this strategy. But its legacy products need to be adapted for it. So, they IBM has a ways to go in terms of giving a comprehensive vision. I think you're going to hear more and more from them in a leadership sense in terms of defining what the space looks like.
Gardner: Jon, who are the vendors to be keeping an eye on in terms of the intersection of virtualization and SOA?
Collins: All of the big players obviously -- meaning IBM, Microsoft, and HP -- who are talking about their virtualization offerings.
Interestingly, if you are taking IBM as an example, virtualization can mean very different things, depending on which part of the organization you're talking to. If you are talking about, for example, virtualization of information access, that’s almost a middleware question of how to access multiple types of structured data.
But, if you're talking about virtualization as infrastructure, then it’s very much about the resource management question. So, any one of the organization may have different virtualizations. And I can credit Steve in this case, it's a question of how you bring those together. One company that’s probably coming up alongside -- it’s trying to get as far up as it can before people stop it -- is EMC.
And, yes, obviously EMC has VMware, so they have done a great deal in virtualization on the server side, but equally with their nLayer acquisition, and other management-type acquisitions, they're putting in place a lot of the pieces they need to be able to manage the virtualized infrastructure they end up with. I think they're doing that quietly and hoping that no one sees they're trying solve that problem.
Gardner: I'm actually a little bit surprised we haven’t seen even more acquisitions out of EMC moving up toward this SOA deployment capability. Perhaps they are not interested in going into it for design-time, but clearly they seem to be heading in that way for the runtime. Does anybody have any quick, blue-sky thought about who EMC might look at in that regard?
Collins: That’s a good question. Why did I just think of BEA?
Gardner: A BEA-EMC fit?
Collins: That does make EMC a very different company.
Garone: I'm not sure if that’s a likely scenario, but from the functionality and product standpoint, maybe.
Gardner: Yeah, technical fit but not cultural or geographic one -- and I don’t think Wall Street will look at it as a whole greater than the sum of the parts; probably as a whole less than some of the parts.
Garone: Well, for every acquisition that EMC makes, it's constantly having a battle with Wall Street, which wants it to remain a storage company.
Collins: And that’s another reason I think it’s acquiring its portfolio by stealth, buying a company like RSA to say, yes, we need to get into the security space, which is partially true. But then look at what it’s doing with Smarts and the potential incomes between RSA and Smarts from the identity management side and on the event’s profiling and behavioral analysis sides. There’s a lot more to its acquisition than it's letting on.
Gardner: I think Documentum was the first big signal that they are moving aggressively outside of just storage.
Garone: There's another nuance to this company relationship issue, getting back to the question you asked earlier about other players. There are some, and I’ll call them pure play, although I am not sure it really applies to all of them. We mentioned one before -- VMware. There’s also Intel, which is doing a lot work in the virtualization area, given the fact that it makes a large number of the processes that are out there. While they are focused on virtualization, in some cases they have a narrow view in terms of platform coverage, but they also are not necessarily expert on things like SOA. So, I think you’ll find a lot by way of partnering between companies like those and some of the large vendors who are providing parts of those solutions.
Collins: I’ll just make one more point on the virtualization and the SOA thing. I’m reminded of when Microsoft stood up and said: "Of course we’ve always been a virtualization company." They tend to say that they've always been a "this" company, they’ve always been a "that" company. The reason they said they’ve always been a virtualization company is, of course, virtual file systems -- caching and paging and swapping all these mechanisms inside the operating system.
I think extreme virtualization ... will succeed ... (and) ... we’ll stop talking about it, and it will become parts of the distributed platform of the future. And it will just be an expectation -- SOA will run and run because it’s a way of doing things. Virtualization should just become part of the standard, if you like.
Gardner: One of the things we haven’t gotten into with virtualization is the impact it has on how a vendor would price. Per-processor, per-seat, per-client access license, perpetual enterprise license? It gets rather murky. And I don't think that the high-margin approach to up-front licensing for software will hold up in the virtualized world. Therefore, some companies might actually be interested in dragging their feet on this trend to preserve some of their fat profit margins.
Collins: It’s a huge problem for Oracle and companies like that who have charged for everything in the past.
Garone: I agree. I think it is a huge problem for them. In fact, there are a couple of problems. One is virtualization, and the other is just how many processors, given the multi-core designs that are coming out today, are you actually deploying on?
Gardner: What’s Intel talking about now? It's 64 cores on a chip, right?
Garone: Yeah. So, it is a big problem. Whether or not they’ll have a choice of dragging their feet is really debatable at this point. I think there are going to be other factors that are going to affect just how fast or slow they go into that area.
Gardner: Let's move on to another subject. We’re certainly going to be revisiting the notion and the concept of the intersection of virtualization and SOA. But there’s been another topic in discussion around SOA recently, and that's about the impact of SOA on ERP, and CRM, and other packaged business applications.
On one side of the fence, we have people saying that SOA is going to be the death-knell, if you will, or certainly diminish the role and impact of packaged applications. We’ve had some large analyst firms come out with reports and some sensational headlines to that effect. And, yet, when I speak to people in the field they say, "No way"; that SAP and Oracle and other packaged application vendors are in for the long haul, and that they’re entrenched.
And, they say that SOA might become a layer above those packaged applications in order to create a data services layer and perhaps a transactional and logic services layer above those. But that doesn’t mean you’ve ripped them out. And, like the mainframe, they'll be there in 20 years. Let’s talk a little bit about the impact of SOA on the packaged business applications field.
Jon, let's go to you first over in the U.K. Should SAP and Oracle be very worried, vis-à-vis SOA?
Collins: I think they’ve been worried for years, but not because they’re worried about the impact of other people coming and stealing their markets. You can only sell these things once, and once you’ve got it in place, you put it under consultancy. The massive number of man-hours that went into implementing things like ERP in enterprise companies then becomes an issue.
What you are going to make money from this year? Yes, of course, we've got the Computer Associate scenario with repeat licensing of old software, but the real revenue streams and increases come from how you get people to do newer and more innovative things with your products. So, I know that probably three, four, or five years ago SAP started to talk about how it’s going to componentize it’s platforms. We’ve seen NetWeaver. We've seen MySAP port. We've seen a whole number of different ways of essentially adding a level of distribution to SAP.
Now, to be honest with you, with your initial preamble, I actually find I can read the line from my notes, which says pretty much exactly the same thing. When I’ve spoken to actual customers of these things, no one is looking to go and replace them. And if they are, that it's not because they are thinking about SOA. What I’ve written here is that at the bottom line, you’ve got a database, you’ve got a rules engine, you’ve got a workflow engine, and it's been crafted and customized for that organization. Why on earth would they want to rip it out and put something else in place? Probably other analysts think about it in terms of market segments and products, and so on. But that’s not the way that we need to think about this.
Gardner: What I think has been happening is that some analysts are confusing a will or a desire to rip them out with an intention.
Garone: That may be part of it, but I'm not even sure there’s a will at this point. First of all, I have a lot of faith in end-users. The more I talk to them, the more I believe that they worked very, very hard to make the right decisions. And in fact, with the AlignIT Group, the company you mentioned earlier, my goal was to be able to help them do the massive amount of work that they need to do to get to a short list of vendors and products they look at as quickly and as inexpensively as possible.
But they do a lot of work. And so, I am confident that, generally speaking, they do make the right decision. It’s not always trendy, and it's not always what the analysts say. And, I think that when you’ve got something that really works for you, there’s a lot of inertia there that says, “Stick with it and see how you can adapt the new paradigms that exist, that will help you do your business better, to what you currently have.”
There is a little bit of that deja vu all over again. We talked earlier about SAP and components. I remember discussions like this back when software components started to appear in the mid 1990s, and even before then, when people were talking objects and CORBA and how we're going to get all this stuff to work. If you go by those kinds of predictions and supposed trends, SAP and PeopleSoft -- well, PeopleSoft isn’t independent now -- but an Oracle and the other enterprise app vendors would have been out of business a long time ago.
The fact is that people will want to stay with their current solutions, especially in the case of the ERP, where that high level of integration that brings a lot of the benefits of ERP, has been established and is working for you. And then, tack on to that the technologies that will allow you to say, “Manage the supply chain better,” "Bring your supply chain in better contact and better integration with the systems that you currently have."
Gardner: All right. Let me just push back a little bit on this. If you look at a lot of large organizations, they're spending somewhere between 60 and 80 percent of their total IT budget just keeping these systems up and running. They're spinning their wheels, not really adding anything new or innovative. That leaves them with a very small section of their budget for discretionary spending, to be innovative, to get out in front with some alternatives and to try to be a competitive in their environments and their markets. If they can somehow get out of this vise of being 60-80 percent in maintenance of a monolithic business packaged applications, back office and front office, wouldn't they want to do that?
Garone: Well, it’s hard to say "no" to that question. The question is, what's the trade-off, what’s the ROI, and to what degree does the business has to be upended and set on its ear to get that accomplished? And if the cost-benefit case can be made, then certainly, they’re going to look seriously at it. My suspicion is that the trade-off is not all that clear cut and, at least for the time being, many enterprise application vendors are going to be able to sort of buy time in convincing their customers that the short term is not the right time to make that move.
Collins: Absolutely. I think we’ve seen in the past two or three years that infrastructure consolidation projects were very popular. And now, we’re seeing a lot of application rationalization and consolidation projects. People are trying to reduce the number of processor cycles they are using, looking for legacy applications that not many people are using anymore, and seeing how they can merge the data from those into other applications. And, that’s all well and good -- that’s all about, giving them more flexibility in the budgets.
But I admit it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are putting up lots of money for innovation. It might just mean that they’re making the place more efficient, just so that they can cut costs, but that doesn’t mean that they are going to go out of their way to remove the large amount of investment they’ve put into ERP system, or the CRM applications.
Gardner: So, perhaps the way to look at SOA is not what we’ve been hearing a little bit of lately, which is SOA kills ERP. It's not rip and replace. It's not either-or. It's both. From my perspective, SOA’s main value proposition in the short- and medium-term is about risk reduction.
If you can put in some buffer around your legacy systems -- if you can use SOA for more greenfield development, too -- if you can use it for extended enterprise opportunities where you can share services in a close-knit trading or supply chain environments, or a business ecology environment -- then you’re reducing your risk for being backward compatible because your services can continue to be modernized. That is to say, your legacy can be modernized into services and the investments can be exploited. You can reduce your risk in terms of flexibility by being fast to business process development in the current day, and you can reduce your risk in terms of being ready to accept what’s going to be new and interesting, innovative, and productive in the future. What’s wrong with this logic about SOA, as a risk reducer and not a displacer of packaged applications?
Collins: I’ve got the phrase written down here, "augmentation not replacement." I think that you're absolutely right to see everything in terms of reduced risk. I would say that companies are always looking for reduced risks, but they are not necessarily saying that they’ve got high levels of risk, and need to reduce them. But, maybe I would re-phrase it to, “Increase flexibility without increasing risk.” With the idea of replacing something and starting from scratch, there’s an inordinate amount of risk involved, because potentially you go through the same problems you went through last time. Whereas if you create an interface to the tried and tested, you can develop new ways of using that tried-and-tested business logic and tried-and-tested the data management logic without being held back.
Gardner: Okay, Steve, what’s the risk in looking at SOA as risk reduction?
Garone: No, that's a great point. What I was alluding to earlier is that the core enterprise application functionality that organizations have trusted and have used for some time -- and that's well integrated and working for them -- is something that they’re going to want to keep. On the fringes of that, if you will, is the use of SOA-type scenarios and implementations that will allow them to increase their flexibility, keep up-to-date on new technologies, and integrate with those that are outside the realm of that ERP application. And, I think that, in the short term, is what’s going to happen over time. In fact, I think SOA will become the new way to do applications and deploy and manage applications. Then, they will gradually move in that direction, and be either followed by or pushed by the enterprise. Apps vendors are going to move in that direction as well.
Gardner: Okay, we have been looking at ERP versus SOA through the lens of the enterprise. What if you're a software as a service (SaaS) provider? What if you're an ISV who is moving from packaged apps to services? Wouldn’t you want to build that for the way you are going to go to market -- on an SOA -- and therefore it might be a rip-and-replace; if you are providing your services, your business services as a service?
Garone: It’s certainly a desirable option for all the reasons that all of us talk about when we talk about using an SOA-based approach. Again, they’ve got decisions around, being able to make sure that the services to their customers are not interrupted and, once that migration has occurred, that they are as good, if not better, than they were before. But, certainly they can take advantage of all the benefits that end-users can, when moving toward SOA.
Gardner: I think this is the "dark horse" trend here, around the SaaS provider. If they can start delivering solid business services for something along the lines of $20-$40 per user per month, and mid-sized companies can latch onto this -- probably quicker and easier than a large enterprise where they’ve got entrenched monolithic applications and large investments in them -- then, suddenly, a company that has 200 to 2,000 seats of users can start doing business processes far more fleet and productively than a big, lumbering enterprise (that's) locked into some older paradigm of development and applications. Wouldn’t that perhaps provoke a tipping point, whereby there could be a move towards rip-and-replace?
Garone: I think you are pretty much right on. In fact, I think you are making a very important point in terms of the type of end-user organization that will go for that initially, and will start that ball rolling. And, yes, I think when you are talking about a solution provider -- software as a service provider in terms of enterprise applications -- then absolutely pricing is going to be an issue. The business model is going to be an issue, but if they can get that together -- it has been proven in the case of companies like Salesforce.com -- then, yes, they are going to be on to something, and that will, I think, push larger organizations and providers to start thinking in those terms as well.
Gardner: Do you buy into that, Jon? Do you think that SaaS could actually be a catalyst to SOA and create a tipping point that changes of the dynamics of packaged business applications business?
Garone: I think it can, and it should in certain domains. If you look at when Salesforce.com saw its initial success, it was delivering a very generic, what I usually call a CRM application, to the widest possible audience and lowest common denominator. And, it did it very well.
So, despite everyone saying, "ASPs are dead and so on and so forth," Salesforce.com kind of rose like a phoenix from the ashes of the ASP, and it's done very well ever since. I’ve just finished a consultancy with an ISV that is looking directly these issues, and it seems to me that there are companies like that. They're having to balance and manage the risks from two sides. The first is that, for example, they do have a lot of, let’s call it "legacy business logic."
So, let’s say, if you had health care, for example, you’ve already developed some quite complex logic in terms of how you are going to manage in terms of compliance regulations and so on and so forth. We don’t want to just throw that out and start again, because you’ve already put a lot of work into that. At the same time, if you do take an existing system and you try to open it up to much a wider user base, you could be very likely to have issues with scalability. So, you can’t necessarily just take your existing application and say, "There you go -- everyone come in" because you'll all just get jammed in the door.
So, it’s about balancing the risks of both sides. It’s not going to be a tipping point, but it's definitely going to be a route toward the tipping point. And the [accelerant] will come from something -- as typically the tipping point starts from -- that no one expects. At the moment, we're seeing that there's a whole mash-up. Everyone is trying out stuff like that -- everyday things that actually encourage and capitalize on these more old-fashioned applications.
Gardner: So, if we consider that Rich Internet Applications (RIAs) have the front end, allowed for a mashing up, if you will, of services from an entrenched internal enterprise packaged application infrastructure, as well as using SaaS provider services, as well as some greenfield customized SOA services internally -- then you get the best of all worlds, and that probably would be very attractive to a lot of companies.
Collins: To an extent. I think Steve very early on made a good point about, when it comes down to operational management, service management, and service delivery and so on. In India, you’ve got a scenario where you just have all of these things available to you and you can pick and choose -- decide which ones you’re going to need. Then how are businesses going to differentiate themselves?
They’re going to differentiate themselves by being able to make very fast decisions about what’s best for them as a company, or what’s going to best serve their business activities and their customer relationships. And how to do that faster than the competition is largely going to come down to how well they’ll manage their IT and how well they’ll manage that process of change and ongoing adoption.
So, that’s why most companies still have to wait. Most companies still are very slow in terms of adoption and adaption of big technologies. So, that’s where the battleground's going to be.
Gardner: If I read you correctly then, the companies that will do well in terms of their competitive advantage in their fields are not necessarily the ones that master a particular technology, but master the ability of picking and choosing and moving among these technological innovations in a way that benefits them and their particular situation. That reduces their risk but gives them more choice and agility. I am afraid that, of course, these things are much easier said then done. But clearly the intersect between ERP packaged applications, SOA, SaaS and the ability to manage all of them and keep the plates spinning -- this will be an issue of great importance in the next decade. I don’t think we can say too much more with a 90-percent authority, but we’re getting closer.
We're out of time, but we’ve hit on two major subjects today that affect SOA. We’ve discussed the virtualization issue and SOA, as well as this notion of business applications and the effect on that market and industry. Joining us to discuss these have been two noted industry analysts, independent Industry analysts: Steve Garone, a former VP at IDC and a founder of the AlignIT group. Steve, I want you to give us your disclosure at this time. We’ve discussed a lot of companies. Would you just list the ones that you had a business relationship with, so they we're all, on the up-and-up here?
Garone: Great. Yes, currently, based on the ones we talked about, it's IBM and Sun.
Gardner: Superb. And also helping us weed through these issues, has been Jon Collins, of Macehiter Ward-Dutton. He is the principal analyst there. And I wonder if you could do your disclosure exercise as well, please?
Collins: Sure, I’ve been working recently with IBM, and I think I mentioned Mercury. And Microsoft, we’ve done some work with them.
Gardner: All right, and for me on disclosure, I’d been doing work basically through sponsorships of podcasts with HP and, I think that’s perhaps the only one that we’ve mentioned right now.
Thanks for joining us. I would also like to point out to our listeners that if you'd like to learn more about BriefingsDirect B2B informational podcasts or to become a sponsor of this or other B2B podcasts, feel free to contact me, Dana Gardner, at 603-528-2435. This is Dana Gardner, the principal analyst at Interarbor Solutions, and you’ve been listening to Briefings Direct SOA Insights Edition. Come back and listen next week too. Thanks.
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Transcript of Dana Gardner’s BriefingsDirect SOA Insights Edition, Vol. 2. Copyright Interarbor Solutions, LLC, 2005-2006. All rights reserved.